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Should Pharmacy Schools be censored?

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  • Should Pharmacy Schools be censored?

    If you look at the number of pharmacy schools in the UK we have over 25 pharmacy schools. Most fail to elaborate on the job prospects for candidate i.e. provide hard statistics what pay and job prospects are like post 5 years of graduation? I personally think if universities were forced to release this data I do think many people would rethink their decision to do this course, especially at £9k which is not justifiable.

    I wonder if anyone else thinks universities should be made more accountable for the courses they provide to ensure students are given the full facts before they decide to enrol on the course.

  • #2
    I agree. media study students all think they will walk into a presenting job on TV at C500k , Best way is to be born into a family already well established.
    johnep

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    • #3
      Part of the problem is that the ‘official’ statistics refer to having a job 6 months after leaving. Since many, if not most pharmacy graduates manage to get a pre-reg training post if they want one, that skews the statistics.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by jzd4rma View Post
        I wonder if anyone else thinks universities should be made more accountable for the courses they provide to ensure students are given the full facts before they decide to enrol on the course.
        Maybe would-be students should do their own research rather than accepting what they are told by somebody who has a vested interest in getting them to part with their money for the course.
        If you were spending £9,000 on a car you would get it checked out first.

        Comment


        • jzd4rma
          jzd4rma commented
          Editing a comment
          If you take into perspective that most will be 16 and 17-year old kids I doubt many have the wisdom or maturity to research things properly, only the exceptional few will be able to carry out such empirical research. Therefore I do think the universities are engaging in exploitative behaviour which would not be acceptable in other sectors. I am surprised no one has actually investigated this before.

          This is why I think its imperative that the government forces Uni to give more statistics and data which would give prospective applicants a reality check on the course they wish to enrol. However, I understand a university would not willingly disclose such information which is why I am suggesting they should be made compulsory. This would help the education system in general because it would also allow the government to force the closure of universities which provide no value to the public except excess debts or these institutions may close on their own accord because of lack application.

          I doubt this will happen but that's what I think should happen.
          Last edited by jzd4rma; 9th, August 2017, 02:19 PM.

      • #5
        It is not 9K in total. Per year. £36K plus interest before you even graduated!

        I am not for limiting of pharmacy schools.... I am for free markets - this is the only way to improve the quality of teaching etc as each uni battles to outdo each other in terms of quality.

        I would expect students to do their research before applying for a course.

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        • culchie82
          culchie82 commented
          Editing a comment
          Don't agree with this at all. Increasing the number of schools has not improved quality when you consider that some students are getting into these newer schools with grades as low as CCC. This has only served to the increase the Pharmacy graduate pool and decrease the rates of pay.

      • #6
        They don't. With all the excitement of exam results and scramble to get into Uni, youngsters will just accept a place without thinking it all through.
        johnep

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        • #7
          Few observations. Spoke to my son's friend who has just finished his second year at Uni. Works part time during the summer and gets about £100 per week. Did an internship last summer so has a job offer when he completes next year. He will be on £28k pa which he thinks is "awesome". Told me he will move out, get a flat in Greater London, buy a car, save up to buy a flat etc. He will be on 5x his current money. Hasn't factored in tax/NI, commute/rent/food/utilities etc. I know. Naive in the extreme.
          Get loads of young Pharmacists who want me to help with pharmacy valuation. I ask, how much does your current lifestyle cost? Repeatedly get wildly inaccurate answers. When I break it down with them, the worst case has been an under estimation of £2k per month!
          Heard on the radio recently that all courses/Universities land on that £9k per annum fee. Some of the courses available, frankly sounded like a Monty Python sketch. Our discipline requires us to refuse/limit sales so we can't get our heads around academic institutions that prepared us, not adhering to the same ideals?

          Comment


          • #8
            Originally posted by the old merlin View Post
            Part of the problem is that the ‘official’ statistics refer to having a job 6 months after leaving. Since many, if not most pharmacy graduates manage to get a pre-reg training post if they want one, that skews the statistics.
            +++1 After that most people get jobs. Imho, the real problem is that in retail there is no tree left to climb. The higher management posts in retail are all contained within a few multiples and proprietorship is an ever receding mirage. What the situation is in the industry I don't know and hospital likewise.

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            • #9
              Going to get on my soapbox a little here. I think the issue of fees is a red herring. The way the money is paid back, the payment depends on SALARY not the total of the debt. So whether the debt is 21,000 or 56,000 when you hit the threshold to start paying back, you pay exactly the same amount. And I believe the deduction is made BEFORE tax.

              For me the critical issue is how many people fail to get work at the end of the pre-reg year. If there is mass unemployment at that stage we have a problem. If there isn't then we don't.

              My son would have KILLED to get 28K after leaving uni. He did an unpaid internship to get a job that paid minimum wage. t was 3 years before he got over 25K. Now 5 years later he is on 35 K with prospects. Pharmacy graduates have amazing prospects compared with other students.




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              • jzd4rma
                jzd4rma commented
                Editing a comment
                That might have been true in the past but these days I have seen newly qualified pharmacists being offered £22K salary for a a full-time post so watch this space.

            • #10
              Originally posted by Mutley View Post

              +++1 After that most people get jobs. Imho, the real problem is that in retail there is no tree left to climb. The higher management posts in retail are all contained within a few multiples and proprietorship is an ever receding mirage. What the situation is in the industry I don't know and hospital likewise.
              Good post Mr M. And not just because you liked what I posted! As you say, the majority of posts are in community and higher management posts, in company terms are rare, and middle management appaars to be the province of a separate educational stream. Where is the Boots District Manager who was until yesterday a Branch manager?
              Hospital and academia are different; there is a ladder which can be climbed, but there are a lot fewer posts to start with, and in industry ythere’s always the possibility of leaving pharmacy itself and climbing the company mamangement ladder.

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              • #11
                I was a Saturday boy at the shoe. A Mr J W Leivers was the TGM and he gave me advice after I won a County Major Scholarship. (Worth £90 a year!)..
                johnep

                Comment


                • #12
                  Not got much time but others are right and HESA six months after uni stats are snapshots which unis are used to using.

                  More robust studies are rarer such as LEO published last year and this year which tracks 1, 3, 5 and 10 years later and offers institutions and JACs codes.

                  You might think the above sounds a bit fanciful but several Russell Group unis chest thumpingly posted LEO snippets prominently on their websites.

                  Comment


                  • #13
                    culchie82 commented
                    Yesterday, 06:06 PM
                    Don't agree with this at all. Increasing the number of schools has not improved quality when you consider that some students are getting into these newer schools with grades as low as CCC. This has only served to the increase the Pharmacy graduate pool and decrease the rates of pay.
                    The fact schools are lowering standards indicate a failure with the GPhC. It should be possible to have lots of schools whilst GPhC maintains standards. Students should sue their universities and the GPhC for lowering standards.

                    A closer look at pre-reg pass rate levels over the last few years might be a better indication.


                    Comment


                    • culchie82
                      culchie82 commented
                      Editing a comment
                      Realistically what's the chances of students persuing litigation against their universities?
                      I could easily envisage a time when most Universities in the UK offer Pharmacy as a course, even the former Polytechnics have and will continue to get in on the act...in which case I think the degree won't be worth the paper it's written on. To the Universities, it's just a game, a game of false advertising and reinforcing and repeating a message over and over enough until students consider it to be true.

                      The BMA doesnt allow Universities to offer the Medical course at mediocre grades and they're not suffering the problems of oversaturation and low salaries Pharmacy is suffering, I think that says it all.

                  • #14
                    Agree with Culchie. Universities are money making institutions and will happily take your money. Why are more pharmacy schools opening up? Well, I'm sure the owners of Boots and Lloyds has something to do with that so they get lots of cheap labour.

                    So so much corruption in the GPhC , multiples and universities.

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                    • #15
                      Originally posted by willerz86 View Post
                      Agree with Culchie. Universities are money making institutions and will happily take your money. Why are more pharmacy schools opening up? Well, I'm sure the owners of Boots and Lloyds has something to do with that so they get lots of cheap labour.

                      So so much corruption in the GPhC , multiples and universities.
                      I agree....but the problem lies with the GPhC which is not behaving like the BMA. I am sure the BMA will allow any university to open medical degree courses if they can demonstrate that can maintain the quality of it.

                      There is nothing wrong with offering a course but it is not the university fault if the GPhC are not enforcing standards.

                      Comment


                      • mcitr
                        mcitr commented
                        Editing a comment
                        The GPhC is the equivalent of the GMC, not the BMA.

                        The BMA is a trade union, merely the most effective trade union in the land.
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