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  • Antibiotics that are suitable for strict vegans

    Say you had a customer that was strict vegan and they returned some capsules that had gelatin in them, are there any alternatives to them?

    The antibiotic is Tetralysal or Lymecycline 408mg capsules.

    The gelatin inside the capsules is animal derived.

    This is a hypothetical scenario not actual one.

    Second related question:
    Say they decided that they wanted to take the antibiotic by taking the powder out of the capsules, discarding the capsule, then taking the powder with water is that ok?
    ECDR.UK

  • #2
    There are other drugs in the tetracycline and related class that come in tablet and liquid preparations. You'd need to take a look at the ingredient list but I'm sure an option is available if not specifically for lymecycline.

    I would question if someone was so vegan that they wouldn't take medication containing gelatin whether any medicine is truly vegan? All medicines have been tested on animals at some point so I'd argue that they are all developed through the exploitation of animals.

    Antibiotics are an area where there will frequently be a work around based on forms and class.

    How about we ask the same question of prograf capsules after a transplant to prevent organ rejection. Would someone be willing to die for those principles?

    Just to clarify I'm a happy meat eater but I do think it's an interesting hypothetical.
    I remember when a blog was an individual boot.

    Comment


    • #3
      Yes until recently, a vegan would die of insulin dependent diabetes. Heparin still derived from animal sources.....mainly pig mucosa. How about Jewish and Muslim attitudes.
      Those with pernicious anaemia would also die from lack of B12. However, now produced by fermentation. Thyroid was also derived from animals in the past.
      Many vaccines grown on animal tissue or eggs. Smallpox epidemics would be very common. Not sure about Tetanus antitoxin now but used to be produced from horses.
      In the meantime rain forests being burnt down to grow soya. How would Welsh hill farmers survive on wheat grown on poor land in the mountains? Alaskans would also have problems.
      johnep

      Comment


      • gmorris291
        gmorris291 commented
        Editing a comment
        Well done Nimrec and johnep putting the facts in perspective.

    • #4
      Suggest to them that they do the research themselves!
      47 BC : Julius Cesar : Veni Vidi Vici : I came, I saw I conquered.
      2018 AD : Modern Man : I shopped, I clicked, I collected.
      How times change.

      If you find you have read something that has upset or offended you an anyway please unread it at once.

      Comment


      • #5
        What is wrong with pharmacy...

        This is a clinical forum section.. I asked a genuine clinical question and people rambling on about god knows what. Please answer the questions, then we can talk about amazon rainforests. cheers.

        1 - Is there an alternative to Lymecycline 408mg capsules that dont contain gelatin, i mean like actually dont, not just your view.
        2 - Say they decided that they wanted to take the antibiotic by taking the powder out of the capsules, discarding the capsule, then taking the powder with water is that ok?

        Thanks
        ECDR.UK

        Comment


        • #6
          Originally posted by rafhelp View Post
          What is wrong with pharmacy...

          This is a clinical forum section.. I asked a genuine clinical question and people rambling on about god knows what. Please answer the questions, then we can talk about amazon rainforests. cheers.

          1 - Is there an alternative to Lymecycline 408mg capsules that dont contain gelatin, i mean like actually dont, not just your view.
          2 - Say they decided that they wanted to take the antibiotic by taking the powder out of the capsules, discarding the capsule, then taking the powder with water is that ok?

          Thanks
          You've asked a "hypothetical" question and people are debating the merits. I'd say there's nothing wrong with pharmacy and you're seeing a healthy discussion between graduates of science degrees.

          I now have a slightly sneaking suspicion that this may not be as hypothetical as it was first presented.

          So..... Hypothetically

          Question 1 - Which indication is the lymecycline being used for? There doesn't appear to be a lymecycline product without gelatin but we could look at an alternative if we know what it's being used to treat.

          Question 2 - Taking the powder out can effect the bioavailability of the product. Some drug will be left in the capsule, some will likely be left in your mouth if you're taking the powder outside the capsule. It would end up with a variability of the dose.
          I remember when a blog was an individual boot.

          Comment


          • #7
            This is usually for acne in a young person. Young people often very passionate about their beliefs and love to school strike and march about. However, they then all carry plastic bottles of mineral water. Reminds me of the lady collecting for a charity against using animals. It was winter and she was wearing her fur coat.
            The only ecological footwear leather and plastic free would be clogs.Unless the dosage form was timed release using the actual capsule shell, then no problem taking contents out in my opinion.
            johnep

            Comment


            • #8
              "Young people often very passionate"... older people are those same people who just gave up cos no one cared or they busy with other things.
              Lets not slam passionate unhappy young people for wanting to make the world a better place:
              https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/201...reta-thunberg/

              I found this:
              https://www.nhs.uk/common-health-que...e-taking-them/

              Antibiotic capsules are not controlled release so then its just a delivery system, to avoid the nasty taste of the powder. Having researched and asked manufacturer, and other health care professionals I would say it is safe to do however it may reduce efficacy a bit.

              As for the gelatin making medication unsuitable to take... This would apply to muslims, jews (possible other religions), vegans and possible people intolerant to gelatin. Thats makes up a huge percentage of the worlds population, so not a trivual issue. However I guess its about profits, but surely in this advanced modern age they have found an alternate to gelatin?

              I mean like they found an alternative to even intelligence...you know AI. But not for gelatin?

              Conclusion after spending a few hours talking to several pharmacists, manufacturer and 'lay people'/patients on forums....
              There is no conclusive answer, or please ask your GP. But I thought pharmacists were the experts on medicines.
              ECDR.UK

              Comment


              • #9
                Capsule shells can be made from modified starch. They have been available for many years.

                https://www.amazon.co.uk/Vegetarian-...54262783&psc=1

                I thought it was common knowledge.
                Johnep

                Comment


                • #10
                  Originally posted by Nimrec View Post
                  I now have a slightly sneaking suspicion that this may not be as hypothetical as it was first presented.
                  Yeah but thats beside the point here..shun much suspicion as they say.

                  Originally posted by Nimrec View Post
                  but we could look at an alternative if we know what it's being used to treat.
                  Say it was for acne or related issues of this kind;


                  Originally posted by Nimrec View Post
                  Some drug will be left in the capsule, some will likely be left in your mouth if you're taking the powder outside the capsule. It would end up with a variability of the dose..
                  Agreed so it should be ok as in neither case can you gaurantee 100% of the drug will be delivered.

                  Originally posted by Nimrec View Post
                  I'd say there's nothing wrong with pharmacy
                  Ok sorry theres not anything wrong with pharmacy, if a few are incompetent but an issue like this affects potentially millions if not billions of people and it is quiet common knowledge and health care professionals dont care enough to take time to resolve the issue. There is something wrong with pharmacy politics if certain pharmacists can harrass and bully one into tears while doing pre-reg and the pharmacy regulatory authoritative body sees nothing wrong with it. There is something wrong with pharmacy if a tutor can not sign off a pre-reg student (who is British born and bred and got english GCSE's, a degree and full level of education) for "not being able to communicate effectivelee in English" and the RPSGB/GPhc sees nothing wrong with that decision. Theres def something wrong with pharmacy. Also its turned from being patient/health driven to pure profit driven. I asked a pharmacist about this same gelatin issue and they went on about cost effectiveness. Manufacturers make millons in profits so pretty sure money is not a problem for them.

                  Making sure a patient can take a medication (be it clinical or ethical) is a pharmacists job not the patients. Knowing what medications contain including composition of capsules is a pharmacists job, as defined by the GPhc. If this wasnt a hypothetical situation id have just done more than a pharmacist in order to find the best solution...regardless of how good my English is..

                  Anyhow...
                  Last edited by rafhelp; 25th, September 2019, 11:03 PM.
                  ECDR.UK

                  Comment


                  • #11
                    Originally posted by johnep View Post
                    Capsule shells can be made from modified starch. They have been available for many years.

                    https://www.amazon.co.uk/Vegetarian-...54262783&psc=1

                    I thought it was common knowledge.
                    Johnep
                    So clinically speaking you could take the powder out the hard gelatin capsule and place it in these and eat them...
                    Kinda like IKEA version of medicine

                    Its a good idea though, maybe pharmacies should have machines that convert gelatin capsules to vegetarian ones if more 'suitable' for the patient.

                    Im off to design and patent such a machine... Oh but wait seeing how stingy and lot of pharmacists are and how reluctant to modernise they can be prob just wasting my time... like I did with my pharmacy ecdr http://ecdr.uk
                    Last edited by rafhelp; 25th, September 2019, 02:13 PM.
                    ECDR.UK

                    Comment


                    • #12
                      I've been involved in some of these investigations for patients.
                      Perhaps I'm jaded and cynical about it sometimes so my apologies.
                      The usual appropriate place to find this information is the SPC or PIL.
                      Beyond that you have to start contacting manufacturers for the exact details.
                      47 BC : Julius Cesar : Veni Vidi Vici : I came, I saw I conquered.
                      2018 AD : Modern Man : I shopped, I clicked, I collected.
                      How times change.

                      If you find you have read something that has upset or offended you an anyway please unread it at once.

                      Comment


                      • #13
                        It's an issue which crops up every so often. To take the easy bit first, using pork products for Jews and Muslims is usually OK. IIRC the Holy Quran allows the use of otherwise haram items if necessary in case of illness, and rabbis I've consulted have seen no problem with pork insulin if essential.

                        Like Pharmanaut I've met these issues a few times over my working life, and agree about contacting the manufacturer, or easily available literature.

                        Problem is often that any given pharmacist only comes across this sort of issue a few times at most in their working life although I suspect it's likely to be met with more often.

                        Comment


                        • #14
                          I just googled vegan capsules and information on the screen in a millisecond. Remember Google is your friend.
                          Capsule filling requires a free flowing powder and this is usually a fine granulate, so easy to transfer to another empty capsule.
                          Manufacturers produce for the many not the few. There is a pharmacy in London who could prepare these capsules especially, but will be very expensive.

                          https://www.specialist-pharmacy.com/


                          John Bell and Croyden is another one. Basically, anything is possible if you can afford it.

                          https://johnbellcroyden.co.uk/

                          As a student I was taught to look for information in a library. Now there is the internet and you should look there.

                          johnep

                          Comment


                          • #15
                            Originally posted by johnep View Post
                            I just googled vegan capsules and information on the screen in a millisecond. Remember Google is your friend.
                            Capsule filling requires a free flowing powder and this is usually a fine granulate, so easy to transfer to another empty capsule.
                            Manufacturers produce for the many not the few. There is a pharmacy in London who could prepare these capsules especially, but will be very expensive.

                            https://www.specialist-pharmacy.com/


                            John Bell and Croyden is another one. Basically, anything is possible if you can afford it.

                            https://johnbellcroyden.co.uk/

                            As a student I was taught to look for information in a library. Now there is the internet and you should look there.

                            johnep
                            It is prob the most practical solution if there are no alternatives to the medication, Good find.

                            Originally posted by johnep View Post
                            As a student I was taught to look for information in a library. Now there is the internet and you should look there.
                            yes but this idea did not occur to me.
                            ECDR.UK

                            Comment

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