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  • Wastage of Foreign Aid

    Press is citing how we still send millions to India and China though both countries can afford Space ventures whereas we cannot. I note that the adverts for Aid to girls shows Indian children and apparently these countries are happy for us to subsidise their welfare costs while spending money on Space and arms.
    When in industry, overseas countries in receipt of aid set up central medical stores with the intention of saving money. This has been proposed for the UK. We had some examples of what happened.
    1) We had a visit from a gentleman who said he wrote out the orders for the Medical store. He could ensure orders would come our way if we put 10% of the value into a UK bank account for him.
    2) A typist somewhere made a typo of an 'O' instead of an 'I'. Thus one tin became one ton. The tin size was not specified as ,say, 2 Kg and we duly made and supplied 1,000 Kg of liquorice concentrated extract as requested by the Crown Agents.
    3) In another case an order for 5,000 ampoules of Diazepam injection became 5,000 boxes of 10. so we supplied 50,000 ampoules in boxes of 10. This was also an order via Crown agents and paid for out of Overseas aid.
    4) I was puzzled why we received an identical order from a Middle East country every year. I asked our local agent to investigate. I was told that the person who sent us an order depended for his job on writing orders and what happened was that every year most of the previous order was simply dumped in the sea.
    5) We had an order for a large quantity of Debrisoquine Sulphate from an East African Central Medical Store.
    We fulfilled the order and shipped to our local agent. He reported that the stores were refusing to take delivery.
    What had happened was that Atenolol (Tenormin) had just been introduced and rapidly captured the market. Sales of debrisoquine from the store had dropped to zero and thus they wanted to cancel the order, but someone had forgotten to do so. I had left the company before any resolution.
    If we had centralised ordering in the UK , I am sure the press would soon find similar examples. Nationalised industries were not famous for their efficiency and nor is the ministry for overseas development.
    Charity begins at home.
    Latest example is the refusal of educational grants for poor white boys.
    I hope Boris is thinking about some of this while cavorting in Mustique.
    johnep

  • #2
    Originally posted by johnep View Post
    Press is citing how we still send millions to India and China though both countries can afford Space ventures whereas we cannot. I note that the adverts for Aid to girls shows Indian children and apparently these countries are happy for us to subsidise their welfare costs while spending money on Space and arms.
    When in industry, overseas countries in receipt of aid set up central medical stores with the intention of saving money. This has been proposed for the UK. We had some examples of what happened.
    1) We had a visit from a gentleman who said he wrote out the orders for the Medical store. He could ensure orders would come our way if we put 10% of the value into a UK bank account for him.
    2) A typist somewhere made a typo of an 'O' instead of an 'I'. Thus one tin became one ton. The tin size was not specified as ,say, 2 Kg and we duly made and supplied 1,000 Kg of liquorice concentrated extract as requested by the Crown Agents.
    3) In another case an order for 5,000 ampoules of Diazepam injection became 5,000 boxes of 10. so we supplied 50,000 ampoules in boxes of 10. This was also an order via Crown agents and paid for out of Overseas aid.
    4) I was puzzled why we received an identical order from a Middle East country every year. I asked our local agent to investigate. I was told that the person who sent us an order depended for his job on writing orders and what happened was that every year most of the previous order was simply dumped in the sea.
    5) We had an order for a large quantity of Debrisoquine Sulphate from an East African Central Medical Store.
    We fulfilled the order and shipped to our local agent. He reported that the stores were refusing to take delivery.
    What had happened was that Atenolol (Tenormin) had just been introduced and rapidly captured the market. Sales of debrisoquine from the store had dropped to zero and thus they wanted to cancel the order, but someone had forgotten to do so. I had left the company before any resolution.
    If we had centralised ordering in the UK , I am sure the press would soon find similar examples. Nationalised industries were not famous for their efficiency and nor is the ministry for overseas development.
    Charity begins at home.
    Latest example is the refusal of educational grants for poor white boys.
    I hope Boris is thinking about some of this while cavorting in Mustique.
    johnep
    I disagree with your sentiments for the following reasons:

    1. China and India may have a GDP that is considerably higher than UK but per person it is considerably lower might I remind you that neither country offers no safety net in terms of national healthcare like NHS or any form of benefit. Currently China GDP per capita is $10,999 and India is $2,041. Most would agree that India's GDP per capita is hardly in the same league as a developed economy. However China's GDP per capita seems respectable although GDP per capita is the most misleading statistical tool to use to determine individual wealth because in UK GDP per capita is $39,720.44. We both know that anyone working in a shop, cleaner or manual labour wage is unlikely to earn anything near that. Therefore its fair to say that in China poverty exists and only through ignorance can we claim they don't need foreign aid. Yes they have space programmes both of the countries but they happened to be led by tin pot leaders who don't give any consideration for their people besides given UK's colonial history this goes a long way towards reparation. I am happy for my tax to be used to make a difference on a global scale.

    2. "Educational grants for poor white boys" in this day and age with internet, cheap online book store you can educate yourself if you have the will. Obviously this pushes the onus onto the person and that is less palatable because it means only the individual person is responsible for their own progress. If anything the government should help create a culture where it provides friendly regulation and cheap capital for start ups based on the benefits it will bring to society. People in the UK have no idea about global poverty. In the UK we do not have a repressive government, we have law and order. The real reason poverty and lack of social immobility exists in the UK is because of poor capital allocation and useless materialism. The other day I have noticed the shop assistant on their break with the latest iPhone worth over £1k forgive me for saying this but you can buy a phone £20 and have a contract for £5 monthly. Put the rest of the money towards a saving or online courses to educate yourself.

    However it would make sense that we have more robust accountability and governance to ensure the funds reach the intended recipient. I agree that corruption is widespread but it would be morally reprehensible to withdraw foreign aid because the current system in place is corrupt rather its important to address the problem.

    Comment


    • #3
      I can't believe so-called "educated" people still fall for tabloid fodder. Even a cursory search will tell you that the UK no longer gives aid to India. Any money that is given is to private enterprises which actually generates returns to the UK. India's space agency actually generates money and is, for the most part, self-funding through private satellite launches. Not to mention whatever UK gives pales in comparison to the riches that were stolen and diverted from India over Two centuries.

      Comment


      • #4
        I thought this topic would wake you up after the holidays. Should we try to compensate for the failings of other governments. If UK rule is good, then should the UK continue to subsidise others?.
        When in export, I had many discussions on the topic of England milking other countries. I usually pointed out that it was the sons of the "gentry" who who went overseas to find their fortunes, while their fathers exploited the ordinary people in England. Instead of calling mill workers "slaves", they were called "apprentices" and to all purposes treated nearly as badly as the 2nd and 3rd sons treated workers overseas.
        These days it is the large corporations who would love to return to the good old days as exposed by Dickens. They are the modern Scrooges.
        Having just watched and enjoyed 'My Fair Lady' who are the undeserving poor these days?.
        You give the impression it is the 'white boys' and perhaps it is. What do you suggest the government should do?
        johnep

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by karsa View Post
          I can't believe so-called "educated" people still fall for tabloid fodder. Even a cursory search will tell you that the UK no longer gives aid to India. Any money that is given is to private enterprises which actually generates returns to the UK. India's space agency actually generates money and is, for the most part, self-funding through private satellite launches. Not to mention whatever UK gives pales in comparison to the riches that were stolen and diverted from India over Two centuries.
          I love this and completely agree. It highlights the hypocrisy and selective memory of Empire that is unfortunately still incredibly prevalent today. Of course everyone thinks Britain is the historical shining light of the world and they should take a break from saving the world and look after their own when history in schools is essentially just Henry the 8th, WW1, WW2.

          Johnep all of your examples could easily be matched by ineptitude in examples in both the public sector and private sector in the UK today. People are unfortunately naturally fallible

          Considering India and China are apparently going to be our new best friends and open up the mystical Nirvana of trade that we've supposedly been missing out on in the EU is now really the time to start alienating ourselves from them?
          I remember when a blog was an individual boot.

          Comment


          • #6
            Good! A vigorous discussion to start the New Year. The Empire served as a good place for the privately educated sons of the wealthy to find their fortunes via India and Hong Kong. (The young of the latter appear to yearn for the old days of British rule)
            The "lower" classes were cannon fodder as exemplified in WW1 by sending foot soldiers against machine guns.
            One poster has hinted that the UK owes reparations for the 400 years plunder of India. The Romans occupied England for 400 years. Should we expect Italy to make reparations to us?. The Normans occupied England in 1066 and their descendants are still ruling via the "establishment". I confess to being descended from one of William's foot soldiers and living in a town dominated by a cathedral put by William to impress the locals.
            Ford said history is bunk, and we need to start anew as the world is now.
            I can do nothing towards solving the ills of the world but perhaps you know what to do.
            I have no Indian relations but I do have a Chinese cousin by marriage and my son is married to a girl of West Indian parents.
            johnep

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by johnep View Post
              Good! A vigorous discussion to start the New Year. The Empire served as a good place for the privately educated sons of the wealthy to find their fortunes via India and Hong Kong. (The young of the latter appear to yearn for the old days of British rule)
              The "lower" classes were cannon fodder as exemplified in WW1 by sending foot soldiers against machine guns.
              One poster has hinted that the UK owes reparations for the 400 years plunder of India. The Romans occupied England for 400 years. Should we expect Italy to make reparations to us?. The Normans occupied England in 1066 and their descendants are still ruling via the "establishment". I confess to being descended from one of William's foot soldiers and living in a town dominated by a cathedral put by William to impress the locals.
              Ford said history is bunk, and we need to start anew as the world is now.
              I can do nothing towards solving the ills of the world but perhaps you know what to do.
              I have no Indian relations but I do have a Chinese cousin by marriage and my son is married to a girl of West Indian parents.
              johnep
              Just to debunk this. The Empire helped drive the industrialisation of UK especially the railway network, heavy industry and roads. There was a huge proliferation of railway due to investment from "the privately educated sons of the wealthy". Indirectly this helped the local population reap benefits in the future. Many regions of the UK had little financial incentives for these infrastructure they were built because people got deliriously rich from the empire. The proof of this situation is how the government in the 20th Century failed to build decent infrastructure in the more remote parts of UK or delays plans because it has little financial incentive.

              The other benefits the UK derived from the Empire:
              1. Financial Institution: thanks to the far flung trading posts it created a market for merchant houses which have evolved into the banking sector. One of the most important sector of UK is the finance sector. The question I ask is would this have existed in its current form if the UK never had an Empire?
              2. Education institutions: as the wealthy got wealthier from the Empire via trade many left generous bequest to educational institutions such as Bristol Uni, UCL, Oxford, Cambridge and etc. The UK has some of the best universities but look into their origin to see how many got their funds.

              I agree that a lot of people lived under abject poverty during the period of Empire in the UK but it still doesn't remove the moral obligation UK has to help where it can. I personally think we should invest in infrastructure in third world countries with the aim of getting a return over the long term. This acts as a growth pole for poor regions but ensures financial resources are not squandered.

              Comment


              • #8
                I agree. The original idea was to obtain raw materials from the empire and convert into goods via the industrial revolution. The Lancashire woven cotton industry destroyed the jobs of 50,000 hand spinners and weavers in India before India obtained looms and reversed the process. The spur to industrialisation of cotton owed a lot to the woollen industry based on UK being ideal for sheep. As the empire evolved into the Commonwealth, then more benefits flowed outwards.
                UK markets were cut off from the Commonwealth by the EU. I long to taste Anchor butter from New Zealand,
                To me the target should be Trade (Fair Trade) not aid of which too much finds its way into pockets of various people rather than the original poor people. Probably the best way would be to educate girls. Educate a boy and you educate a man. educate a girl and you educate a family. Sef reliance is also important. Read the story of the impoverished boy who bought a windmill to generate electricity from a cycle dynamo. I found it telling that locals then flocked to charge their mobile phones. He just wanted light to enable study at night.
                johnep

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by johnep View Post
                  UK markets were cut off from the Commonwealth by the EU. I long to taste Anchor butter from New Zealand,
                  johnep

                  "In the United Kingdom, Anchor block butter was imported from New Zealand until August 2012 when Arla Foods UK, the British licensee, transferred production to a local factory at Westbury, Wiltshire, using British cream." This was presumably a business decision and nothing to do with the EU restricting imports.
                  [I]Nice information. I like your information very much. It is a perfect information that clears all my doubts and gives a clear idea regarding that. It is really advantageous for me.I would definably take the benefit of it.[/I]

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Anchor Spreadable, as well as other New Zealand butter products, were banned from import into the EU for a short time. This came after a complaint made to the European Commissioner for Trade, Peter Mandelson, by the German dairy trader, Egenberger.
                    johnep

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Anchor Spreadable was temporarily banned "for a short time". This was because it is not made from cream and milk but is churned together butter and oil.
                      [I]Nice information. I like your information very much. It is a perfect information that clears all my doubts and gives a clear idea regarding that. It is really advantageous for me.I would definably take the benefit of it.[/I]

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Well I and my Asian friends prefer Anchor butter from New Zealand. As regards exploitation of India, it could be said they are doing this to us with so many companies under Indian control. The press regards all pharmacists as greedy people exploiting the NHS and customers, so is every pharmacy owned by a pharmacist of Indian extraction busy doing this?
                        Those upper class types going to India were really economic migrants. So same is true for all those people desperate to get into the UK. They are seeking their fortune modern style.
                        johnep

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by johnep View Post
                          As regards exploitation of India, it could be said they are doing this to us with so many companies under Indian control. The press regards all pharmacists as greedy people exploiting the NHS and customers, so is every pharmacy owned by a pharmacist of Indian extraction busy doing this?
                          Those upper class types going to India were really economic migrants. So same is true for all those people desperate to get into the UK. They are seeking their fortune modern style.
                          johnep
                          I can't help but feel either you are naive or purposely simplifying facts to validate your statements.

                          We live in a free market economy by virtue of such system we can exploit the economy of a country if we have a trade deal and vice versa. For all the evils of 21st century I would say it has better ethics and transparent governance then when UK made the game for India. Put it simply I don't think it would be possible to go into a country and take it over and rule as you please the international law wouldn't stand for it in the 21st Century.

                          The proof of this goes back to WW2 after Japan's surrender USA stayed back to ensure they embrace democracy and not go back to their old ways. They never annexed it and made it the 51st state of USA. UK on the other hand turned India into its fiefdom and in turn looted it for all its worth. How you make it comparable to the Asian skilled immigrants migrating to UK and exploiting economic opportunities is the same is a slight mystery for me?

                          After all none of these pharmacist held anyone at gun point to gain economic advantage and for the record it seems many actually studied in UK therefore these opportunities were open to everyone in UK and not just the Asians. I agree that the Community Pharmacy system was a bit of a joke but again is it the fault of the pharmacists or the government who implemented this over generous reimbursement scheme in that era? Look at the pharmacy landscape now most pharmacies are barely breaking even and are working on razor thin profit margin because government are squeezing them dry.

                          Another point I wish to stress is that India's current plight is not direct result of UK's exploitation because they left in 1947 so the government had all the time in the world to help develop the economy. After all both Japan and South Korea built a very powerful economy despite being completely decimated in that era. However in the UK we still have a moral obligation to do something to help the poor of India whether its through long term investments for profit or humanitarian relief aid. Personally for me if it meant contributing to this and defaulting on buying something nice and expensive I would prefer to contribute because surely everyone human life has some value?

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Oh dear, touched a raw nerve. Perhaps there is a charity funded by Indian community resident in the UK to fund the poor in India such as the Dalit community. I note you lay some blame on the Indian government. Can you still vote in their elections?. I believe we allow Irish citizens resident in UK to vote in English elections.
                            In the old days, people could not travel and stayed in their own country to perhaps have a revolution. Now they want to come to the UK instead. Many of the would be migrants crossing the channel are Iranian.
                            The exploitation of India and other countries was the means for 2nd and 3rd sons of the aristocracy to find their fortunes,
                            The ordinary person like my ancestors were exploited in the mills and factories to make profits for the owners.
                            The UK establishment was terrified of an English revolution at the time of the Russian one. However, the urge to populate Canada and Australia meant that large numbers of those who would have supported a revolution emigrated instead. There are two black stains on the UK authorities. One the refusal to offer safety to the Russian tzar and the other to send back refugee Cossacks to their deaths under Stalin. George V and Churchill were instigators.
                            Now perhaps as it is the New Year it is time for me to cease stoking the fire of this discussion. In the meantime we borrow money to give away.
                            johnep

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by johnep View Post
                              Oh dear, touched a raw nerve. Perhaps there is a charity funded by Indian community resident in the UK to fund the poor in India such as the Dalit community. I note you lay some blame on the Indian government. Can you still vote in their elections?. I believe we allow Irish citizens resident in UK to vote in English elections.
                              In the old days, people could not travel and stayed in their own country to perhaps have a revolution. Now they want to come to the UK instead. Many of the would be migrants crossing the channel are Iranian.
                              The exploitation of India and other countries was the means for 2nd and 3rd sons of the aristocracy to find their fortunes,
                              The ordinary person like my ancestors were exploited in the mills and factories to make profits for the owners.
                              The UK establishment was terrified of an English revolution at the time of the Russian one. However, the urge to populate Canada and Australia meant that large numbers of those who would have supported a revolution emigrated instead. There are two black stains on the UK authorities. One the refusal to offer safety to the Russian tzar and the other to send back refugee Cossacks to their deaths under Stalin. George V and Churchill were instigators.
                              Now perhaps as it is the New Year it is time for me to cease stoking the fire of this discussion. In the meantime we borrow money to give away.
                              johnep

                              Re-read my answer because I notice in your response you have stated "I note you lay some blame on the Indian government" but look at what I have written:

                              "Another point I wish to stress is that India's current plight is not direct result of UK's exploitation because they left in 1947 so the government had all the time in the world to help develop the economy. After all both Japan and South Korea built a very powerful economy despite being completely decimated in that era. However in the UK we still have a moral obligation to do something to help the poor of India whether its through long term investments for profit or humanitarian relief aid. Personally for me if it meant contributing to this and defaulting on buying something nice and expensive I would prefer to contribute because surely everyone human life has some value?"

                              Does that look like I am giving partial blame? I made it very clear that India's current economic plight is due to its own corruption. Also Johnep in the spirit of being civil what has the fact of me being able to vote in an Indian election has anything to do with this debate? Is there a reason why you are making this personal? In a democracy everyone is entitled to an opinion whether its right or wrong is another thing. To me it seems that you are unable to articulate your opinion based on facts and as a result have engaged into the game of personal attack.

                              Another thing I wish to comment on is your obsession on how the working class in UK did not have any opportunities during the British Empire and it was exclusive to the ruling class. I would advise you to re-read history books and what you will find is that during late 1800s people had plenty of opportunities to emigrate and make a fortune in the Americas/Australia/New Zealand. The only thing is only the most industrious and risk taking person was prepared to do this. Perhaps this is what happened in the pharmacy sector, most pharmacists were happy to take a salary back then but pharmacists of Indian ethnicity were prepared to risk their capital and accept short term uncertainty for long term wealth simply because they figured they had very little to lose and everything to gain.

                              In a legitimate situation like this we should applaud such achievement but when people use less than ethical means to achieve these we should say it as it is. In the 20th/21st Century Russia is experiencing this with its oligarch system as effectively only a few people have wrestled assets which really belong to the people kind of like what UK did with its British Empire during its peak.

                              Comment

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