Australia/New Zealand

[womble]

Originally Posted by Ray

my opinion; no special treatment for NZ/australian p'cists! well. thats one of the purposes for the EU union......

Interesting. So you are saying that the NZ/Australian 4 year degree courses that are very similar to the general UK system are less worthy than the pharmacy degree course in say Albania/Turkey.
And completely away from academia and IQ the colloquialisms and slang used every day in describing a persons health is very hard for people with 'english as a second language' to pick up. Just ask any consciencious staff in a pharmacy that have had a variety of 'European' qualified pharmacists, and I am sure you will be flabbergastred by how many times they have had to 'translate'/interpret for confused parties!!!

[Jeff]

Originally Posted by womble

Just ask any consciencious staff in a pharmacy that have had a variety of 'European' qualified pharmacists, and I am sure you will be flabbergastred by how many times they have had to 'translate'/interpret for confused parties!!!

Yeah - when I arrived in Yorkshire I had to learn how to deal with pikes and spells.

Jeff

[Fleegle]

And there's always the Jakeys, Neds, Skangers, Chavs and Knackers..

[Raoul]

Originally Posted by womble

interesting. So you are saying that the nz/australian 4 year degree courses that are very similar to the general uk system are less worthy than the pharmacy degree course in say albania/turkey.


No, i am saying you can not graduate from NZ and expect to come and work in the UK without doing extra bits here and there, plus the EU TREATY is clear about this subject( THE INFLUX OF NON EU PEOPLE TO EU)
SOME SOUTH AFRICAN ARE GREAT PHARMACISTS, AND ENGLISH IS THEIR 1ST LANGUAGE.........WHY THEY HAVE TO GET THROUGH 100S OF THINGS TO WORK IN THE UK WHILE NZ PHARMACISTS WANT TO GET THINGS IN HIS WAY? MAYBE POLITICAL REASONS?

And completely away from academia and iq the colloquialisms and slang used every day in describing a persons health is very hard for people with 'english as a second language' to pick up. Just ask any consciencious staff in a pharmacy that have had a variety of 'european' qualified pharmacists, and i am sure you will be flabbergastred by how many times they have had to 'translate'/interpret for confused parties!!!

if those staff are so annoyed with the English level of those EU pharmacists, why don't they become p'cists and solve this big issue. IF THEY ARE TOO LAZY TO INVEST IN THEMSELVES AND MAKE SURE TO DELIVER P'CISTS TO SATISFY THE PUBLIC NEEDS, THEN THEY HAVE NO RIGHTS TO TALK ABOUT AN EU P'CIST WHO LEFT HIS COUNTRY, CAME TO ENGLAND TO WORK AND SERVE 1000S OF PATIENTS, DO THEIR BEST, DO NOT COMPLAIN, AND WORK EFFICIENTLY ( WELL THAT'S WHY THE MULTIPLES LOVE THEM)
100000S OF PATIENTS ARE BENEFITING FROM THE EU P'CISTS SERVICES! GO TO GRIMSBY AND HULL FOR A VISIT, IF THE POLES/SPANISH/ITALIAN P'CISTS ARE NOT WORKING THERE, IMAGINE WHAT WOULD HAPPEN TO THE HEALTH SYSTEM IN THAT AREA.......

[Sir_Dispensalot]

In my opinion if the laws surrounding pharmacy and the course requirements are similar then providing they meet the legal requirements to work in the uk and pass a sufficient language test then any pharmacist should be able to practice here. AFTER a (possibly shortened) pre-reg period and registration exam, that is.

And yes, i have met some wonderful foreign pharmacists as well as some shocking ones - but the same could be levelled at a lot of uk pharmacists too. I do however think that the language requirements and assessments should be a little stricter - it is very easy to miss things that a patient is telling you, especially compounded if english isn't your primary language.

[Sir_Dispensalot]

Originally Posted by Ray

if those staff are so annoyed with the english level of those eu phrmacists, why don't they become p'cists and solve this big issue. IF THEY ARE TOO LAZY TO INVEST IN THEMSELVES AND MAKE SURE TO DELIVER P'CISTS TO SATISFY THE PUBLIC NEEDS, THEN THEY HAVE NO RIGHTS TO TALK ABOUT AN EU P'CIST WHO LEFT HIS COUNTRY, CAME TO ENGLAND TO WORK AND SERVE 1000S OF PATIENTS, DO THEIR BEST, DO NOT COMPLAIN, AND WORK EFFICENTLY ( WELL THAT'S WHY THE MULTIPLES LOVE THEM)

Actually ray, i agree with some of your points, but the main reason multiples go for foreign workers is simple. Money. Managers cost lots. Locums cost more. Joe bloggski from poland will accept a much lower wage and complain far less than a uk pharmacist about it. With the (major) multiples it's all about the bottom line - don't be hoodwinked into thinking anything else. They've all got boards and shareholders to pay. Even the most 'honorable' ones still have the aim to make profit.

[Raoul]

Originally Posted by Sir_Dispensalot

Actually ray, i agree with some of your points, but the main reason multiples go for foreign workers is simple. Money. Managers cost lots. Locums cost more. Joe bloggski from poland will accept a much lower wage and complain far less than a uk pharmacist about it. With the (major) multiples it's all about the bottom line - don't be hoodwinked into thinking anything else. They've all got boards and shareholders to pay. Even the most 'honorable' ones still have the aim to make profit.

i totally agree with you about making the law stricter in terms of language requirement, probably 2-3 years minimum experience....etc

what annoys me is the fact that a decent aussie/NZ p'cist can come, locum for a couple of months and go back to NZ for few months every year. while an international p'cist, WITH A UK DEGREE, who spent loads of money in the UK for 5 years till qualifying, can not get the FLEXIBLE contract a non-EU member (i.e NZ p'cists) get! anyone on a work permit can not even think to work part time, or anything less than 40 hours/week, while being labeled as a "foreigner i.e even that he has been living in the UK >5 years".

my point is, let's face a fact, BRITISH p'cists can not satisfy the public need. and that's the reason why the rules in terms of language ain't that strict... playing on "this is all what we can do for now" argument.
for all the great british p'cists around, if you guys complain a lot about the EU/international p'cists, why not you make sure to raise kids that are willing to become p'cists and solve the whole issue.

at the end, they do get the feeling that we are providing our health care services, for people who do not even appreciate that an English p'cist is not willing to relocate to area X which has no pharmacists!

in my last visit to Dubai, 3 years ago, i have seen more british people living + working there than the native people. i even talked to some of my friends there who told me they do appreciate all the developments resulting from foreign investment in their countries...... guess what? i bet non of the British people living there speak Arabic (maybe just few words), but people do not make a big deal about it as far as you know your job!

i don't know how we ended up talking about this issue, when the core issue was aussie/NZ p'cists with non UK degree, having privileges to work in the uk, with flexible contracts.

[paul2008]

Originally Posted by Ray

i totally agree with you about making the law stricter in terms of language requirement, probably 2-3 years minimum experience....etc

what annoys me is the fact that a decent aussie/NZ p'cist can come, locum for couple of months and go back to NZ for few months every year. while an international p'cist, WITH A UK DEGREE, who spent loads of money in the UK for 5 years till qualifying, can not get the FLEXIBLE contract a non-EU member (i.e NZ p'cists) get! anyone on a work permit can not even think to work part time, or anything less than 40 hours/week, while being labelled as a "foreigner i.e even that he has been living in the uk >5 years".

my point is, let's face a fact, BRITISH p'cists can not satisfy the public need. and that's the reason why the rules in terms of language ain't that strcit... playing on "this is all what we can do for now" argument.
for all the great british p'cists around, if you guys complain a lot about the EU/international p'cists, why not you make sure to raise kids that are willing to become p'cists and solve the whole issue.

at the end, they do get the feeling that we are providing our health care services, for people who do not even appreciate that an english p'cist is not willing to relocate to area X which has no pharmacists!

in my last visit to Dubai, 3 years ago, i have seen more british people living + working there than the native people. i even talked to some of my friends there who told me they do apreciate all the developments resulting from foreign investment in their countries...... guess what? i bet non of the british people living there speak arabic (maybe just few words), but people do not make a big deal about it as far as you know your job!

i don't know how we ended up talking about this issue, when the core issue was aussie/NZ p'cists with non UK degree, having privileges to work in the uk, with flexible contracts.

I think the UK has lost out by cutting its ties with the English speaking pharmacy world. With flexible working arrangements pharmacists from all over the world brought new ideas, their own unique perspective and shared all this freely for a season. Of course some stayed and contributed more but more importantly many went back with their experiences to change practise in their own countries.

The flexible working, by the way, was not necessarily by choice: if your grandfather was born in the UK or if you are a commonwealth citizen and meet some requirements you can get a one off holiday in the UK allowing you to work for up to 12 months and travel the rest of the time. I think this is a good way to show case the British way of life, perhaps these arrangements are coming to an end because Brits are not proud of the way they live now.

When I was a young pharmacist I believed that there should be some sort of international body where pharmacy ideas could cross national boundaries and pharmacists could agree on the direction that the profession should be moving in and although FIP does some good work, they are largely invisible.

Why did Australia and New Zealand have reciprocity, I think (somebody correct me) that twenty odd years ago there was almost universal reciprocity agreements. I guess these two countries had the closest ties and with pharmacy practise moving in the same direction the reciprocity lasted the longest.

[womble]

Originally Posted by paul2008

I think the UK has lost out by cutting its ties with the English speaking pharmacy world.......
Why did Australia and New Zealand have reciprocity, I think (somebody correct me) that twenty odd years ago there was almost universal reciprocity agreements. I guess these two countries had the closest ties and with pharmacy practise moving in the same direction the reciprocity lasted the longest.

I feel that the only reason for the UK cutting its long standing reciprocity agreement with OZ and NZ was pressure from the EU.
The two way reciprocity agreement did indeed work very well for both hemispheres. Language was not a barrier, courses were similair - many of my lecturers in NZ actually trained and qualified in the UK (and then saw the light and emmigrated)! Then the UK up and decided unilaterally to cut the agreement.
I am not sure about OZ but NZ still has a much more viable route for transfer from the UK training to working in NZ than vice versa.
And I totally agree that MONEY is the driving force behind the multiples employing EU pharmacists - their recruitment drives in the EU always snare cheap employees for themselves. And of course for many EU qualified people the income in the UK is far more than they could earn at home.
Many NZ and OZ pharmacists have practiced over here for 1 year or less before returning home, simply because of visa restrictions and the fact that we cant afford to travel to this area of the world without earning some money along the way.
It will be interesting to see what happens over the next couple of years with the cost of living in the UK increasing substantially, the cost of return flights to the EU increasing and the decreasing strength of the £ against the Euro. Suddenly the UK will be looking less desireable to many current and potential EU pharmacists to work here.
..... But of course the demand will decrease with the introduction of 'the responsible pharmacist' so then the UK will be able to produce enough trained pharmacists to meet its own demand and all us foreigners will be thrown out despite our years of tax contributions.

[Fleegle]

The NZ/Aus reciprocity agreement stemmed from the fact that decades ago, NZ and Aus were swamped with applications from UK pharmacists desperate to emigrate. They agreed, but built a reciprocity clause into the agreement, that antipodean pharmacists could freely enter the UK to practice..at that time, no Aus/NZ pharmacist was really able to do this..

Now they are doing it..what goes around comes around..and the best of luck to them!..We started it.