"Recreational" drugs may have hugely significant effects in lifting depression.(man)

[DavidS]

For example, a deeply ill schizophrenic obviously has strong neural pathways resistant to any form of psychological input, their mind is completely dominated by their biochemistry. Why should it be any different for severely depressed patients?

It isn't, but then I don't completely agree with your premise. Look at the work Ronnie Laing did with schizophrenics, for instance. And if you really want your eyes opened, Richard Bandler with catatonics (not for the squeamish).

The problem is that it takes an inspired therapist (working outside the medical model), and a fair bit of time. You won't see it happening with Layard. In fact, Layard doesn't even want to know. And if you read about what it is like to try and work and negotiate with mavericks like Laing and Bandler, you can see why. But then, inspired therapists do tend to be abnormal and impossible to control, by definition.

[crit care]

i think at the end of the day, if i was suffering rom depression and the doctor offered me the choice of an anti-depressant or some cocaine...i think i would opt for the tried and tested anti-depressant.....but i'm sure there are those who would go for cocaine...maybe i'm living too safely?!?!?

[sol_adore]

It isn't, but then I don't completely agree with your premise.

I agree that I was probably wrong about schizophrenics not being able to benefit from psychotherapy. But I'd just like to explain my point of view a little further.

A) Psychological therapy generates new or reinforce already present neural pathways.
B) Neural pathways completely determine a patient's thoughts, feelings and behaviour.

Therefore, psychological therapy that does not generate new or reinforce already present neural pathways will not determine a patient's thoughts, feelings and behaviour.

Now, of course this is an absolute argument. Psychological therapy will always affect neural pathways. However there may be situations where these changes simply aren't enough to significantly benefit the patient. Maybe in those situations, medication can help change these pathways and would probably be assisted by therapy, which alone would be ineffective.


Btw, thanks for mentioning those articles, they look interesting

[bobbin]

Personally, I don't get depressed, because I meditate regularly and look after my health, and prefer to sort things out that way rather than by taking any drugs at all, but hey

Hi D,

So did you suffer from severe depression before you started to meditate?

B

[DavidS]

Maybe in those situations, medication can help change these pathways and would probably be assisted by therapy, which alone would be ineffective.

My own feeling is that medication and therapy together are a really good idea. I agree with most of what you say, and the bits I don't agree with outright, frankly, I'm not sure about lol.
Of course, different modalities of therapy work on different parts of the bodymind: thoughts (cognitive therapies) emotions (person-centred, gestalt, bodywork) behaviours (er, behavioural) although it isn't as tidy as that, for instance the ubiquitous CBT works on, well, guess. But obviously the effects need to work through to all three areas, and I would just like to include the spiritual as well (with the associated transpersonal and mindfulness therapies).

So did you suffer from severe depression before you started to meditate?

I'm not sure, Bobbit (lol).

I have had blueish periods, and I was suicidal at one point when I was very young, so possibly, that certainly wasn't a rational process (although the research seems to indicate that depressives have a more accurate view of how things are than those who are not depressed - how they worked that out I can't imagine).

But I've never taken antidepressants and have meditated on and off since I was 24 and daily for the past fifteen or so years so its difficult for me to remember clearly.